great post! thank you for being so open and vulnerable, it's scary!!
as a 21 year old virgin i do relate to a lot of these points!! although i'm asexual, so i don't actually want to have sex, i still catch myself sometimes wondering what it would be like, asking myself whether i would have sex if it was with the right person, or if i felt comfortable enough. i feel like if i was to have sex it would be more out of curiosity rather than genuine desire which makes me question even more whether that is a healthy reason or not.
but either way, i also feel like there is this idea that the only way for women to liberate themselves from the patriarchy is to be sexually active, as if the only reason women don't have sex is because they're constricted by notions of female sexuality and purity, which is extremely frustrating!! and then, like you said, there is the whole fetishisation of virginity issue which is equally as frustrating and icky!!!
I’m 21 and have done NOTHING and when people (sadly mostly women) find this out they look at me like an alien or an injured animal that they’ll get help for. “Awww don’t be embarrassed.” They say.
Have you even interacted with a man at a bar or seen a dating app?? I could absolutely have sex if I wanted to. Men are gross so it would probably be easy to “accomplish.” If I wanted to I could. Key word is WANTED. If I don’t feel comfortable enough talking about the election with almost all men, why would I allow myself to be my most vulnerable with them??
This is just me ranting because these comments feel like a safe space, but the whole virginity paradox is so frustrating. I just want to be me and for a lot of the general public that’s off putting. Ahhh c’est la vie
this really hit me deep. i’ve started university recently and my lack of romantic and sexual experience has made me feel so alienated. all of the reasons you’ve listed, your thoughts and feelings, i relate to them so much. you’re not alone <3
I went all three years of my undergrad with a nonexistent love life so I know how you feel. Focus on your friends and studies until it happens and you'll be absolutely fine promise <3
thank you so much for your text! I'm now 24 and as I never took big interest in dating when I was a teen or university (out of fear insecurities and mostly had other things to do) I find myself now feeling like I missed the crash course on how to date how to flirt how to do anything romantic or sexual. it was heartwarming to read you thanks again
I totally relate to your post. Especially as an Asian, most people think I do this because of my culture, when just my choice, my insecurities and other things.
thank you so much for writing this! as someone who was celibate for similar reasons, I’ve been yearning to read something like this. It reminds me of Yvonne Orji’s TED talk “the wait is sexy”–highly recommend!
just came back from watching the TED talk thanks so much for the recommendation!! felt good to have someone with such a platform validate my feelings and speak my thoughts even further
Thank you for writing this! As a 20 year old virgin lesbian, it’s really been a touchy subject for me because I always get asked “well how can you even really know who you’re attracted to if you’ve never done it?”. I’ve always felt stupid when the topic came up with certain people and felt I was often spoken down to about the topic of sex. I related to your experience of men getting an instant boner at the idea of them being your first with my friends who want to experiment or have their boyfriends watch, massive, massive ick. Sometimes I fear my lack of experience in both sex and relationships will hinder me for ever getting into one/having it and wish I’ve done it when I was younger. Recently though, these insecurities have become quieter as I’m grateful I’ve never sacrificed myself for something that really, is only a big deal to other people and I’m also grateful that my life (unlike some people I know) hasn’t been ruled by sex and I’ve gotten to develop myself outside of those expectations.
I apologise on behalf of straight people who have projected their prejudices on you, that’s so unfair!! (The boyfriends watching is SUCH an ick what on earth?) I’m certain the right person will come and luckily for you it won’t be a man <3
Hi Silvia, what a wonderful and incredibly vulnerable point!
I have felt such disgust towards the current dating culture, and towards men in general which as a heterosexual woman really feels like a unfair punishment from the universe lol.
I want you to know that you wanting sex to come with love is not idealistic, but what should be realistic. I cannot imagine sex without love, for me it is the very epitome of being physically and emotionally close to someone. It's a weird expression of love, for sure. It is awkward, and the first few times does not even feel that good (mainly because you're not sure what you're doing and probably struggle to relax). But for me, the beauty of it all is to discover new things about yourself and the person you're with - and I don't believe that can be done without love. You might feel like you're missing out compared to the people who jump into bed with any hot guy they see - but I promise you they are simply searching for the thrill of hormones. Which only lasts for about as long as the guy they're going to bed with.
I don't know why I feel the need to send you a message of hope - but know that there is someone out there who will try for you. I have been the epitome of an independent - "do it all" girl who would rather die alone than raise somebody's son. I still very much am, with the addition that I've grown to be vulnerable with a man who made sure he deserved it. I don't know if there's someone for each one of us out there who will know us from the start - but I know there are those that will try. There are guys, believe it or not, who think the best thing about sex is seeing YOU enjoy it. Who will not talk down on you, who will respect you, listen to you and even be interested in conversations about why gender roles are stupid or why the patriarchy sucks. They're out there.
With that being said, you do not NEED anyone. That's probably the stupidest lie we've been told. Frankly, I believe that you're better off alone than with someone who makes you feel WORSE. My dad always told me that you should assume that all guys are idiots until they prove you wrong. I think there's something to that. If you enjoy your solitude, beam in it for as long as you want.
This was great, probably the most personal post ive read here on Substack. I have been thinking about it for the entire day, and came back to say that I appreciate your honesty and vulnerability. I'm currently 19, and find everything about sex to be cringe. I also feel like everyone else are so careless about it, as a teenage girl i talk to my friends about stuff like this all the time and your point about feeling like an "imposter" hit close too home. I feel like i owe people to inclose info about my own life to not be in the conversation as someone who isn't "capable" of having it. Also the thing about men liking the whole "purity" thing is putting me off. I don't want to miss out, but if i didn't have any pressure on me, I dont think I would be thinking about it. I'm like the most romantic person I know, so the whole thing is strange. Like i should be striving to feel it. Maybe i dont relate romance and sex, or know how to yet. I have been in many situations where I could have done it in a safe environment, but I just opted out. I am also a very observant person, and get very sceptical about everything especially men. I guess I might be overthinking it, but its nice to know someone has such similar feelings towards it:)
this was a really great read, very well said and resonant. "I don’t want to compromise for the sake of not being alone" put into words what I've been feeling lately. I will probably borrow this phrase for my next therapy appointment. Thank you <3
this is such an interesting post. i am a mother, so clearly i'm not a virgin, but I am 22 and still young and i remember the time when i was a virgin. a lot of those thoughts correlate with what you're saying here. however, i wanted to touch on one of your points of jealousy towards people who participate in hook-up culture: i can tell you right now, that you are dodging a massive bullet by NOT participating in it. i truly don't think it is natural for people to have sex with strangers and move on with their lives. your body is precious, your body is a unique vessel, and you should not be sharing something so private, vulnerable, and beautiful with someone who may just see you as another lay, another number under their belt.
my husband is the only man i've ever been with and i enjoy this--not even from just a religious standpoint. i'm very romantic at heart and i always saw sex as the ultimate bond between two people, something to be shared with a person who will love you unconditionally. hookup culture twists and morphs this into something less valuable. so i really hope you don't feel guilt or shame or as if you're 'missing out.' hookup culture really only brings sadness, heartbreak, and misery, from what i've seen. i went to a 4 year college, living right beside frat row for two years. trust me, i've seen a lot of heartache.
I was around 27 or something losing it so I can kinda relate, however I am now 35 and can look back. Here are some perspectives you could think about (or not, you decide).
Reading your text seemed to me like there might be some self fulfilling prophecies. Some random guesses:
Do you really expect to find a loving men when you „hate men“?
Do you think that a men with self value and self respect who treats people nice and equal would like to be with a women who deep down hates men (him)? Could be that you attract men who hate women because you hate men. We always attract sameness and it‘s a mirror of ourself.
Why do you bring up your virginity so much when dating and that men would not „benefitting“ from you sexually? It‘s almost like you‘re not taking part in there? There seems to be a distorted view of men and their sexuality. On the one hand you would like to participate in „Hookup Culture“, on the other hand you judge men who are polarizing with their direct / open sexuality to you? Sexual open people are always frightening if we have a problem with our sexuality. I would always felt uncomfortable around women who where too flirty or direct but it was because of my own sexual insecurities. Now I appreciate this :)
It seems to me you‘re avoiding the risk to not get hurt again and you might be mentally devaluing men so no one is „good enough“ or everyone is like „x“ or „y“. Maybe it just fulfills your storyline. I had similar patterns after my youth love broke my heart and it was just a protection mechanism that I carried into my adult live. To the point where…
…our fear will be protecting us from the very thing we desire the most to a point where we might see our live passes by and we are no longer in the driver seat. In existentialism it’s called a leap of faith. Maybe you need one? Sigmund Freud once said „where your fear is, there your task is“.
Maybe (like you said) your problem is not virginity but vulnerability
I think most men are not these „players“ or „hookers“ but are also struggling with their desires (In a 2020 study, 31% of men aged 18-24 reported having no sex in 2016-2018, which is up from 19% of men reporting sexual inactivity in 2000-2002). I wonder why you only seem to be with those „fuckers“? In my friends circle there is not a single men who is like this stereo type of guy who always has something ongoing but they chose very carefully.
Maybe your view of men is more mysandric that you would acknowledge?
Maybe you need to take responsibility for your own actions?
When you lose it you might realize that it‘s not that big of a deal. The world still turns around like before and you could wonder why you ever put so much overthinking in it.
For someone who is nothing like the men I’m describing you sure seem to be very offended on these men’s behalf. It seems you missed several of my points. So many that I had to reread my post to check if I forgot to mention them.
First of all, I never claimed to go around telling people that I’m a virgin, I actually stated the opposite from the very beginning to avoid such comments. I only bring it up when men’s insinuations about their expectations of me make me uncomfortable, to avoid misunderstandings and establish my boundaries which is effective communication so I’m not sure how you can claim that is an issue on my part?
When I said “I would like to participate in hook up culture” I also acknowledged that in reality it’s not for me. Therefore, I am not seeking someone who is an active participant. Nothing wrong with those who are (which I also made clear) but I make my intentions known from the beginning (I am looking for something long term) so those men aren’t my concern because they’re not who I associate with.
I also don’t see how the “view of men’s sexuality is distorted” when men have made me feel like I need to make such clarifications time and time again. Not discussing sex within the first 2-3 conversations shouldn’t be such a challenge for grown men but it is. You can disagree with this and my view of men in general and call me a misandrist if you want. But your perspective on misandry fails to acknowledge that more often than not it is a response to misogyny.
My hatred of men stems from my fear of them hence my use of “I crave what I fear”. I don’t hate men in the same way they hate women. I am not uncomfortable by sexual people the same way a man would be. Insecurity might be a part of it but I haven’t avoided men because of my insecurities, I have avoided them because I am yet to come across one that has made me feel safe. My discomfort is rooted in concern for my safety and my hate is rooted in my anger over the fact that I have to worry about that to begin with.
To claim that attracting such men is self fulfilling prophecy sounds very much like a “good guy’s perspective” of the situation and while I can sympathise with the fact that not all of you are like that you should also acknowledge that MOST of you are and that is the reality I have to bear in mind. This is the same as “not all men but ALL women” and at 35 you should know better.
I can guarantee you MOST men are like this and to confirm that you need to ask the women around you, not the men or your friends.
Telling a woman she needs “a leap of faith” and that she’s overthinking tells me you need to check your privilege as a man. There have been countless of stories of women who have taken a “leap of faith” this year alone that have resulted in their assault, rape, or even death. I cannot afford to “take a leap of faith” when that is what I could be faced with.
Your comment is a prime example of men imposing themselves in women’s narratives. It sounds to me like you can’t see past your own experiences because if you had you should be able to differentiate the experience of a man and a woman in the sexuality discourse. This was not about you or any man. This was about my experiences with men, there is a huge difference. I urge you to reflect on why you (a 35 year old man) felt the need to explain this situation to me (a 23 year old woman) and projecting your views lwhen our experiences could never be the same.
>Not discussing sex within the first 2-3 conversations shouldn’t be such a challenge for grown men but it is. You can disagree with this and my view of men in general and call me a misandrist if you want. But your perspective on misandry fails to acknowledge that more often than not it is a response to misogyny.
Some women might say: "If a man refuses to discuss sex for the first 2-3 conversations with me, he's infantilizing me and regarding me as a delicate flower. I'm not a delicate flower, I don't need to be patronized. I'm a strong women. Men shouldn't be misogynist like that."
Just because a man cannot read your mind, does not mean he is a misogynist. If you internalize this fact, it might help you hate men less, and attract a healthier partnership.
Another thought: Suppose you accuse a man of misogyny, and he says: "Yes, I am a misogynist. However, my misogyny is a response to misandry, and you need to acknowledge that fact." Would you consider this a valid excuse?
Sex isn’t what symbolises maturity and misandry exists because of misogyny so a man who decides they hate women who oppose their systemic oppression is not a man I want to be with.
In your original post, you confessed to hating men. In this comment thread, the discussion touched on misandry. But now you're talking about "opposing systemic oppression". That's not the same thing! One can simultaneously love men, or feel neutral about them, and oppose systemic oppression.
I think it's understandable to hate a particular person who you feel oppressed you. However, I don't think it is reasonable to hate the 4 billion males on this planet because of their involuntary biological characteristics. Consider: Of the 4 billion males on this planet, many are children. If a woman hates a male infant, is she "opposing systemic oppression"? How about hate for 10-year-old boys? At what age do hating males and "opposing systemic oppression" become equivalent, as you seem to imply? If it's age 18, why would it suddenly be acceptable to hate a male on their 18th birthday?
Here's another way of looking at it. Suppose a man reads this doc:
This post isn’t about men, stop trying to make it about them. I have a whole misandry post if you’re that bothered but I highly doubt you’ll get my points given your take here. If men are systemically oppressed then they only have the patriarchy to blame so if they want to hate someone they can hate themselves.
>This post isn’t about men, stop trying to make it about them. I have a whole misandry post if you’re that bothered but I highly doubt you’ll get my points given your take here.
Substack has threaded comments, so comment chains can explore various topic offshoots from the main post. If you don't want to have a discussion with me here, you don't have to reply.
In any case, I presume you're referring to your post titled: "misandry: a myth, a weapon or a shield?" Which starts off with these sentences:
"To any man who may read this, I know that this is may come as a surprise and a hard concept for you to understand, but this is not about men. This is about women’s experiences with men."
I'm noticing a pattern here. You seem to use "this thing I wrote isn't about men" as a general-purpose statement that allows you to dismiss men's opinions and feelings. Men who are looking for a loving, healthy relationship will move on when they notice this sort of bad-faith condescension. You'll be left with the cynical guys who just want to get in your pants.
>If men are systemically oppressed then they only have the patriarchy to blame
So you believe that: If women are oppressed, men are to blame. If men are oppressed, men are also to blame. Am I summarizing your position correctly?
Is it possible, in principle, for women *ever* to be to blame for gendered oppression? Or are women innocent by definition? If it's possible, in principle, for women to be to blame, can you give a specific example of a hypothetical situation where women would be to blame?
Supposing there's a guy named Jeff, who honestly believes that: If women are oppressed, women are to blame. And if men are oppressed, women are also to blame. This is Jeff's honest belief -- he basically thinks we live in a matriarchy. Given that this is Jeff's honest belief, would it be acceptable for Jeff to hate women because of it?
It's true that men disproportionately occupy certain positions of power such as CEOs and politicians. However, I would argue that when it comes to *cultural* power (including power over gender relations), in 21st century Western society, such *cultural* power is disproportionately wielded by women. And that's what explains much of the Google Doc I linked previously.
Well like I stated in the entry „ Here are some perspectives you could think about (or not, you decide).“ However you somehow feel offended by someone else's perspective so I don‘t think further discussing leads to anything valuable. If all you want to read is approval for your POV then fine. If you don‘t value other peoples perspective then why should one value yours?
If you want the world to change for „you“ then you might just be waiting forever.
Again completely missed every single point I made ? Everything you’ve commented just tells me you didn’t actually read any part of neither my post nor my response so I think the one who struggles with other people’s views is you not me.
I never asked for your approval or validation or your point of view quite frankly. Again, your experience as a man is nothing like mine as a woman so yes, your perspective here is simply irrelevant. Your failure to acknowledge that just affirms my view.
You are correct, I did not take any of your points into consideration because it leads to no where. You‘re a victim and we all need to acknowledge it, got it.
When you say „I hate men but men hate women more“ then there is no basis for anything. Would be like discussing with Andrew Tate. Same black and white perspectives. Same hatred, same narrow world view.
Wow your comprehension skills are genuinely shocking. I shouldn't have to spell it out for you, but I did and you still completely missed it. I'd say educate yourself but I doubt you will so yes, please do get off my post
Not you making it about you. Men like you are insufferable. Maybe learn what empathy is and then come back. I know that will be difficult as you’re a man but give it your best effort.
I’ve been away for a while and missed this comment until now but thank you for this take. Unfortunately this seems to be too hard a concept for most men to grasp because their view is limited in hatred of women, which is solely based on them being women so they can’t comprehend that hatred of men is a result of men’s behaviour not because of their gender
thank you for reminding me I’ve never had an original experience, for putting into words how so many of us feel, and for being raw and unfiltered.
none of us have had any original experiences apparently but that’s also oddly comforting ?
great post! thank you for being so open and vulnerable, it's scary!!
as a 21 year old virgin i do relate to a lot of these points!! although i'm asexual, so i don't actually want to have sex, i still catch myself sometimes wondering what it would be like, asking myself whether i would have sex if it was with the right person, or if i felt comfortable enough. i feel like if i was to have sex it would be more out of curiosity rather than genuine desire which makes me question even more whether that is a healthy reason or not.
but either way, i also feel like there is this idea that the only way for women to liberate themselves from the patriarchy is to be sexually active, as if the only reason women don't have sex is because they're constricted by notions of female sexuality and purity, which is extremely frustrating!! and then, like you said, there is the whole fetishisation of virginity issue which is equally as frustrating and icky!!!
completely forgot to go into the misconceptions of women’s liberation from the patriarchy but you’re so right!!
As a 24 year old virgin this is so so so so real
I’m 21 and have done NOTHING and when people (sadly mostly women) find this out they look at me like an alien or an injured animal that they’ll get help for. “Awww don’t be embarrassed.” They say.
Have you even interacted with a man at a bar or seen a dating app?? I could absolutely have sex if I wanted to. Men are gross so it would probably be easy to “accomplish.” If I wanted to I could. Key word is WANTED. If I don’t feel comfortable enough talking about the election with almost all men, why would I allow myself to be my most vulnerable with them??
This is just me ranting because these comments feel like a safe space, but the whole virginity paradox is so frustrating. I just want to be me and for a lot of the general public that’s off putting. Ahhh c’est la vie
this really hit me deep. i’ve started university recently and my lack of romantic and sexual experience has made me feel so alienated. all of the reasons you’ve listed, your thoughts and feelings, i relate to them so much. you’re not alone <3
I went all three years of my undergrad with a nonexistent love life so I know how you feel. Focus on your friends and studies until it happens and you'll be absolutely fine promise <3
thank you so much for your text! I'm now 24 and as I never took big interest in dating when I was a teen or university (out of fear insecurities and mostly had other things to do) I find myself now feeling like I missed the crash course on how to date how to flirt how to do anything romantic or sexual. it was heartwarming to read you thanks again
I'm 25 but otherwise your comment is word-for-word my experience!! I feel like an alien. Everyone else seems so natural at it.
I totally relate to your post. Especially as an Asian, most people think I do this because of my culture, when just my choice, my insecurities and other things.
thankyou for such a lovely wonderful post!! beautifully written and i deeply resonated with it ⭐️⭐️
thank you so much for writing this! as someone who was celibate for similar reasons, I’ve been yearning to read something like this. It reminds me of Yvonne Orji’s TED talk “the wait is sexy”–highly recommend!
just came back from watching the TED talk thanks so much for the recommendation!! felt good to have someone with such a platform validate my feelings and speak my thoughts even further
of course!! glad you enjoyed it😊
Thank you for writing this! As a 20 year old virgin lesbian, it’s really been a touchy subject for me because I always get asked “well how can you even really know who you’re attracted to if you’ve never done it?”. I’ve always felt stupid when the topic came up with certain people and felt I was often spoken down to about the topic of sex. I related to your experience of men getting an instant boner at the idea of them being your first with my friends who want to experiment or have their boyfriends watch, massive, massive ick. Sometimes I fear my lack of experience in both sex and relationships will hinder me for ever getting into one/having it and wish I’ve done it when I was younger. Recently though, these insecurities have become quieter as I’m grateful I’ve never sacrificed myself for something that really, is only a big deal to other people and I’m also grateful that my life (unlike some people I know) hasn’t been ruled by sex and I’ve gotten to develop myself outside of those expectations.
I apologise on behalf of straight people who have projected their prejudices on you, that’s so unfair!! (The boyfriends watching is SUCH an ick what on earth?) I’m certain the right person will come and luckily for you it won’t be a man <3
Hi Silvia, what a wonderful and incredibly vulnerable point!
I have felt such disgust towards the current dating culture, and towards men in general which as a heterosexual woman really feels like a unfair punishment from the universe lol.
I want you to know that you wanting sex to come with love is not idealistic, but what should be realistic. I cannot imagine sex without love, for me it is the very epitome of being physically and emotionally close to someone. It's a weird expression of love, for sure. It is awkward, and the first few times does not even feel that good (mainly because you're not sure what you're doing and probably struggle to relax). But for me, the beauty of it all is to discover new things about yourself and the person you're with - and I don't believe that can be done without love. You might feel like you're missing out compared to the people who jump into bed with any hot guy they see - but I promise you they are simply searching for the thrill of hormones. Which only lasts for about as long as the guy they're going to bed with.
I don't know why I feel the need to send you a message of hope - but know that there is someone out there who will try for you. I have been the epitome of an independent - "do it all" girl who would rather die alone than raise somebody's son. I still very much am, with the addition that I've grown to be vulnerable with a man who made sure he deserved it. I don't know if there's someone for each one of us out there who will know us from the start - but I know there are those that will try. There are guys, believe it or not, who think the best thing about sex is seeing YOU enjoy it. Who will not talk down on you, who will respect you, listen to you and even be interested in conversations about why gender roles are stupid or why the patriarchy sucks. They're out there.
With that being said, you do not NEED anyone. That's probably the stupidest lie we've been told. Frankly, I believe that you're better off alone than with someone who makes you feel WORSE. My dad always told me that you should assume that all guys are idiots until they prove you wrong. I think there's something to that. If you enjoy your solitude, beam in it for as long as you want.
This was great, probably the most personal post ive read here on Substack. I have been thinking about it for the entire day, and came back to say that I appreciate your honesty and vulnerability. I'm currently 19, and find everything about sex to be cringe. I also feel like everyone else are so careless about it, as a teenage girl i talk to my friends about stuff like this all the time and your point about feeling like an "imposter" hit close too home. I feel like i owe people to inclose info about my own life to not be in the conversation as someone who isn't "capable" of having it. Also the thing about men liking the whole "purity" thing is putting me off. I don't want to miss out, but if i didn't have any pressure on me, I dont think I would be thinking about it. I'm like the most romantic person I know, so the whole thing is strange. Like i should be striving to feel it. Maybe i dont relate romance and sex, or know how to yet. I have been in many situations where I could have done it in a safe environment, but I just opted out. I am also a very observant person, and get very sceptical about everything especially men. I guess I might be overthinking it, but its nice to know someone has such similar feelings towards it:)
this was a really great read, very well said and resonant. "I don’t want to compromise for the sake of not being alone" put into words what I've been feeling lately. I will probably borrow this phrase for my next therapy appointment. Thank you <3
this is such a huge compliment, I hope it helps you unpack whatever it is you need in therapy <3
this is such an interesting post. i am a mother, so clearly i'm not a virgin, but I am 22 and still young and i remember the time when i was a virgin. a lot of those thoughts correlate with what you're saying here. however, i wanted to touch on one of your points of jealousy towards people who participate in hook-up culture: i can tell you right now, that you are dodging a massive bullet by NOT participating in it. i truly don't think it is natural for people to have sex with strangers and move on with their lives. your body is precious, your body is a unique vessel, and you should not be sharing something so private, vulnerable, and beautiful with someone who may just see you as another lay, another number under their belt.
my husband is the only man i've ever been with and i enjoy this--not even from just a religious standpoint. i'm very romantic at heart and i always saw sex as the ultimate bond between two people, something to be shared with a person who will love you unconditionally. hookup culture twists and morphs this into something less valuable. so i really hope you don't feel guilt or shame or as if you're 'missing out.' hookup culture really only brings sadness, heartbreak, and misery, from what i've seen. i went to a 4 year college, living right beside frat row for two years. trust me, i've seen a lot of heartache.
I was around 27 or something losing it so I can kinda relate, however I am now 35 and can look back. Here are some perspectives you could think about (or not, you decide).
Reading your text seemed to me like there might be some self fulfilling prophecies. Some random guesses:
Do you really expect to find a loving men when you „hate men“?
Do you think that a men with self value and self respect who treats people nice and equal would like to be with a women who deep down hates men (him)? Could be that you attract men who hate women because you hate men. We always attract sameness and it‘s a mirror of ourself.
Why do you bring up your virginity so much when dating and that men would not „benefitting“ from you sexually? It‘s almost like you‘re not taking part in there? There seems to be a distorted view of men and their sexuality. On the one hand you would like to participate in „Hookup Culture“, on the other hand you judge men who are polarizing with their direct / open sexuality to you? Sexual open people are always frightening if we have a problem with our sexuality. I would always felt uncomfortable around women who where too flirty or direct but it was because of my own sexual insecurities. Now I appreciate this :)
It seems to me you‘re avoiding the risk to not get hurt again and you might be mentally devaluing men so no one is „good enough“ or everyone is like „x“ or „y“. Maybe it just fulfills your storyline. I had similar patterns after my youth love broke my heart and it was just a protection mechanism that I carried into my adult live. To the point where…
…our fear will be protecting us from the very thing we desire the most to a point where we might see our live passes by and we are no longer in the driver seat. In existentialism it’s called a leap of faith. Maybe you need one? Sigmund Freud once said „where your fear is, there your task is“.
Maybe (like you said) your problem is not virginity but vulnerability
I think most men are not these „players“ or „hookers“ but are also struggling with their desires (In a 2020 study, 31% of men aged 18-24 reported having no sex in 2016-2018, which is up from 19% of men reporting sexual inactivity in 2000-2002). I wonder why you only seem to be with those „fuckers“? In my friends circle there is not a single men who is like this stereo type of guy who always has something ongoing but they chose very carefully.
Maybe your view of men is more mysandric that you would acknowledge?
Maybe you need to take responsibility for your own actions?
When you lose it you might realize that it‘s not that big of a deal. The world still turns around like before and you could wonder why you ever put so much overthinking in it.
For someone who is nothing like the men I’m describing you sure seem to be very offended on these men’s behalf. It seems you missed several of my points. So many that I had to reread my post to check if I forgot to mention them.
First of all, I never claimed to go around telling people that I’m a virgin, I actually stated the opposite from the very beginning to avoid such comments. I only bring it up when men’s insinuations about their expectations of me make me uncomfortable, to avoid misunderstandings and establish my boundaries which is effective communication so I’m not sure how you can claim that is an issue on my part?
When I said “I would like to participate in hook up culture” I also acknowledged that in reality it’s not for me. Therefore, I am not seeking someone who is an active participant. Nothing wrong with those who are (which I also made clear) but I make my intentions known from the beginning (I am looking for something long term) so those men aren’t my concern because they’re not who I associate with.
I also don’t see how the “view of men’s sexuality is distorted” when men have made me feel like I need to make such clarifications time and time again. Not discussing sex within the first 2-3 conversations shouldn’t be such a challenge for grown men but it is. You can disagree with this and my view of men in general and call me a misandrist if you want. But your perspective on misandry fails to acknowledge that more often than not it is a response to misogyny.
My hatred of men stems from my fear of them hence my use of “I crave what I fear”. I don’t hate men in the same way they hate women. I am not uncomfortable by sexual people the same way a man would be. Insecurity might be a part of it but I haven’t avoided men because of my insecurities, I have avoided them because I am yet to come across one that has made me feel safe. My discomfort is rooted in concern for my safety and my hate is rooted in my anger over the fact that I have to worry about that to begin with.
To claim that attracting such men is self fulfilling prophecy sounds very much like a “good guy’s perspective” of the situation and while I can sympathise with the fact that not all of you are like that you should also acknowledge that MOST of you are and that is the reality I have to bear in mind. This is the same as “not all men but ALL women” and at 35 you should know better.
I can guarantee you MOST men are like this and to confirm that you need to ask the women around you, not the men or your friends.
Telling a woman she needs “a leap of faith” and that she’s overthinking tells me you need to check your privilege as a man. There have been countless of stories of women who have taken a “leap of faith” this year alone that have resulted in their assault, rape, or even death. I cannot afford to “take a leap of faith” when that is what I could be faced with.
Your comment is a prime example of men imposing themselves in women’s narratives. It sounds to me like you can’t see past your own experiences because if you had you should be able to differentiate the experience of a man and a woman in the sexuality discourse. This was not about you or any man. This was about my experiences with men, there is a huge difference. I urge you to reflect on why you (a 35 year old man) felt the need to explain this situation to me (a 23 year old woman) and projecting your views lwhen our experiences could never be the same.
>Not discussing sex within the first 2-3 conversations shouldn’t be such a challenge for grown men but it is. You can disagree with this and my view of men in general and call me a misandrist if you want. But your perspective on misandry fails to acknowledge that more often than not it is a response to misogyny.
Some women might say: "If a man refuses to discuss sex for the first 2-3 conversations with me, he's infantilizing me and regarding me as a delicate flower. I'm not a delicate flower, I don't need to be patronized. I'm a strong women. Men shouldn't be misogynist like that."
Just because a man cannot read your mind, does not mean he is a misogynist. If you internalize this fact, it might help you hate men less, and attract a healthier partnership.
Another thought: Suppose you accuse a man of misogyny, and he says: "Yes, I am a misogynist. However, my misogyny is a response to misandry, and you need to acknowledge that fact." Would you consider this a valid excuse?
Sex isn’t what symbolises maturity and misandry exists because of misogyny so a man who decides they hate women who oppose their systemic oppression is not a man I want to be with.
In your original post, you confessed to hating men. In this comment thread, the discussion touched on misandry. But now you're talking about "opposing systemic oppression". That's not the same thing! One can simultaneously love men, or feel neutral about them, and oppose systemic oppression.
I think it's understandable to hate a particular person who you feel oppressed you. However, I don't think it is reasonable to hate the 4 billion males on this planet because of their involuntary biological characteristics. Consider: Of the 4 billion males on this planet, many are children. If a woman hates a male infant, is she "opposing systemic oppression"? How about hate for 10-year-old boys? At what age do hating males and "opposing systemic oppression" become equivalent, as you seem to imply? If it's age 18, why would it suddenly be acceptable to hate a male on their 18th birthday?
Here's another way of looking at it. Suppose a man reads this doc:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RDnpCSIghRBlsXoY-YOG3jtfG7ELEkn995KkC0OqHro/edit
...and concludes that men are systemically oppressed. Would it be acceptable for that man to start hating women in response?
This post isn’t about men, stop trying to make it about them. I have a whole misandry post if you’re that bothered but I highly doubt you’ll get my points given your take here. If men are systemically oppressed then they only have the patriarchy to blame so if they want to hate someone they can hate themselves.
>This post isn’t about men, stop trying to make it about them. I have a whole misandry post if you’re that bothered but I highly doubt you’ll get my points given your take here.
Substack has threaded comments, so comment chains can explore various topic offshoots from the main post. If you don't want to have a discussion with me here, you don't have to reply.
In any case, I presume you're referring to your post titled: "misandry: a myth, a weapon or a shield?" Which starts off with these sentences:
"To any man who may read this, I know that this is may come as a surprise and a hard concept for you to understand, but this is not about men. This is about women’s experiences with men."
I'm noticing a pattern here. You seem to use "this thing I wrote isn't about men" as a general-purpose statement that allows you to dismiss men's opinions and feelings. Men who are looking for a loving, healthy relationship will move on when they notice this sort of bad-faith condescension. You'll be left with the cynical guys who just want to get in your pants.
>If men are systemically oppressed then they only have the patriarchy to blame
So you believe that: If women are oppressed, men are to blame. If men are oppressed, men are also to blame. Am I summarizing your position correctly?
Is it possible, in principle, for women *ever* to be to blame for gendered oppression? Or are women innocent by definition? If it's possible, in principle, for women to be to blame, can you give a specific example of a hypothetical situation where women would be to blame?
Supposing there's a guy named Jeff, who honestly believes that: If women are oppressed, women are to blame. And if men are oppressed, women are also to blame. This is Jeff's honest belief -- he basically thinks we live in a matriarchy. Given that this is Jeff's honest belief, would it be acceptable for Jeff to hate women because of it?
It's true that men disproportionately occupy certain positions of power such as CEOs and politicians. However, I would argue that when it comes to *cultural* power (including power over gender relations), in 21st century Western society, such *cultural* power is disproportionately wielded by women. And that's what explains much of the Google Doc I linked previously.
Well like I stated in the entry „ Here are some perspectives you could think about (or not, you decide).“ However you somehow feel offended by someone else's perspective so I don‘t think further discussing leads to anything valuable. If all you want to read is approval for your POV then fine. If you don‘t value other peoples perspective then why should one value yours?
If you want the world to change for „you“ then you might just be waiting forever.
Again completely missed every single point I made ? Everything you’ve commented just tells me you didn’t actually read any part of neither my post nor my response so I think the one who struggles with other people’s views is you not me.
I never asked for your approval or validation or your point of view quite frankly. Again, your experience as a man is nothing like mine as a woman so yes, your perspective here is simply irrelevant. Your failure to acknowledge that just affirms my view.
You are correct, I did not take any of your points into consideration because it leads to no where. You‘re a victim and we all need to acknowledge it, got it.
When you say „I hate men but men hate women more“ then there is no basis for anything. Would be like discussing with Andrew Tate. Same black and white perspectives. Same hatred, same narrow world view.
have a nice day :)
Wow your comprehension skills are genuinely shocking. I shouldn't have to spell it out for you, but I did and you still completely missed it. I'd say educate yourself but I doubt you will so yes, please do get off my post
Not you making it about you. Men like you are insufferable. Maybe learn what empathy is and then come back. I know that will be difficult as you’re a man but give it your best effort.
I’ve been away for a while and missed this comment until now but thank you for this take. Unfortunately this seems to be too hard a concept for most men to grasp because their view is limited in hatred of women, which is solely based on them being women so they can’t comprehend that hatred of men is a result of men’s behaviour not because of their gender
me in four years